I got the idea for a trailing limit from Van Tharpe’s market classic Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom. I made Jon Rackley read through the book as part of his training when I first hired him. He brought my attention to an unusual claim made on page 267. Van Tharpe says that it’s often possible to make money even with random numbers.
Random numbers are a pet theory of mine. I’ve long put effort into figuring out whether I could develop a strategy that trades totally at random and still makes money. As the owner of a programming company for traders, and as part of Jon’s initial training for NinjaTrader in December, I assigned him the task of programming the strategy into code.
The book states that trading with totally random entries and a 3 ATR trailing stop generally leads to making money. Flip a coin. You go long if it lands on heads. Go short if it lands on tails. One important note is that we elected to use pure random numbers in our programming instead of the pseudo-random numbers that computers generate. Doing so allows us to avoid time biases in the seeding process that generally pop up when the seeds used are close together in time.
The first working version that I reviewed displayed everything contrary to Van Tharpe’s claims. Using a trailing stop, regardless of the instrument and time frame tested, inevitably led to devastating losses. The profit factors consistently came in near 0.7, a truly awful number.
We did what most of our clients do when they find abysmal strategies. We flipped the strategy on its head. The new strategy uses only a 3 ATR (50 period) trailing limit.
Trailing Limit Analysis
The early conclusion is that trailing limits seem to offer a great deal of potential. Although Jon sent me the code several months ago, it’s only this evening that I had a chance to properly review and test everything.
The profit factors are very encouraging. It depends on the chart that I tested. The worst that I found was a 1.0 profit factor. Everything else came out with profit factors greater than 1. The small table below contains the initial test results. Before you go off salivating that this is the next hot winner, there are a few considerations to keep in mind:
- The results depend entirely on the sequence of random numbers used. Using different sets of random numbers will cause different outcomes.
- The better results on the higher time frames likely result from sampling error. The number of trades involved was only ~160, which is not enough to make definitive conclusions on the nature of the performance. I prefer to see 400 or more trades before drawing definitive conclusions.
- These results do not include spread costs or commissions.
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Random trades sometimes produce solid looking equity curves. Remember that this was generated with purely random numbers and a trailing limit
What made me feel better about the results was reviewing the entry and exit efficiencies of each strategy. The number of trades involved really cluttered the graphic. I ran a backtest on a much shorter time period so that the horizontal, blue line would appear clearly on each graph.
The entry efficiency tells us exactly what we would expect to find. Trades which enter at random do not perform better than random (obviously). What’s interesting is how the trailing limit exit strategy actually skews the entry efficiencies to read slightly worse than random. This is a good example of why it’s dangerous to rely purely on statistics. Keeping the big picture in mind reduces the likelihood of making an erroneous conclusion, in this case that there might be something “wrong” with our perfectly random entries.
The exit strategy, which is what we’re truly testing, looks absolutely stellar. It shows that acting as a conditional probability allows for a great deal of adverse movement while capturing extreme points of the move.
Adding Money Management
The percentage of winners for the tested charts ranges from 60-67% accuracy. High percentages of winners often lead to winning streaks. My cursory glance through the chart led to my easily finding a suitable example to cherry pick. Here, 5 trades in a row reach their near maximum take profits.
Testing that I’ve done in the past tells me that it’s often advantageous to increase the position size based on consecutive winners when a strategy is more than 50% accurate. My first idea after reviewing the initial results was to modify the forex money management strategy to pursue the consecutive winners. We unfortunately do not have time to pursue those changes in the code right now. Let me know if you’re interested in seeing this and we’ll make it a priority if enough readers respond.
While increasing the risk after consecutive winners works out statistically in your favor, it does add to the risk. It’s entirely possible for a “winning” set of trades to start losing based solely on the money management strategy. There’s no way to know whether your set of trades will be the luck beneficiary of the extra risk or whether it will be the unlikely loser.
Conclusion
Everyone talks about stops. You always have to have a stop. Blah blah blah. I know it’s going to be the first question that everyone asks.
My research shows that trading with a stop is for suckers. Larry Connors’ book Short Term Trading Strategies That Work was the first trading book where I actually felt like I read valuable information. One of my favorite sections is on stop losses. His research shows that using a stop loss (even a 50% stop loss) always reduces the performance of a strategy. My own independent analysis bears this out.
Not using stops does not mean never taking losses. On the contrary, refusing to exit the market at a loss makes for a 100% odds of blowing up one day. The point of using a stop or limit is to empirically define, and to never waver from, a specific point or points in the market at which you will exit. A trailing limit accomplishes that goal admirably.
Interestingly, the trailing limit is one feature which FAP Turbo incorporates that I have yet to find in any other expert advisors. Although I’m not a fan of FAP Turbo type of strategies, it certainly does interest me that one of its main features aligns with this research. Also notable is the fact that the trailing limit continues down even to the point where it accepts losses.
Please let me know if you guys help in the creation of multiple EA.. I have some strategies that
I would like to use on EA’s…. Thank you..
Hi Erixon,
Thanks for your comment. Our specialty is helping our customers build MetaTrader expert advisors. I will email you directly about how to get started.
Hi,
Thank you for a very interesting article. I must admit im a little confused on the terminology. Trailing stop for my broker means it moves to the profitable direction should the market go that way but not the opposite direction. Is this what your trailing limit means, i.e. when trade goes in the money your limit follows.
But how do you decide to exit trades that dont make money at all? i.e the limit is never activated and it just goes against you from the moment of entry.
Thanks
D
Hi Dave,
Thank you for commenting. The terminology appears to have confused many people. I’m sure that a lot of this is because the terminology doesn’t exist. I had to make it up because it’s a new idea.
The trailing limit only moves when the price moves adversely. It only updates whenever you are losing money.
The test that I ran hangs with the trade until the market reaches the severely losing limit order. The limit order continually adjusted negatively to the losing position.
Hi Shaun,
To follow up on Dave’s comment I am also a little confused by your terminology. What is a trailing limit? Can you explain with an explicit example on say a long position…?
I read your article with interest because I happen to be doing a fair bit of analysis on random entries myself right now.
Much appreciated.
Rob
So does that mean there could be a theoretical case where your loss is 100% because the price never moves advantageously so that it hits your limit?
Hi Taras,
Good question. Yes, that is theoretically possible.
Just an update Shaun… I just watched the video and now understand what you mean. I will have to test that myself because it seems entirely counter-intuitive… you have unlimited losses and are continually limiting your profits further and further if the trade goes against you.
Shaun,
I just a brief test… if your results are anything like mine (I was looking at some of the equity index futures) then larger ATR trailing stops lead to far better results… mine were also awful at 3 * ATR but showed a continued improvement in P&L right up to 7 or 8 times ATR trailing stop in the Russell 2000 which is admittedly volatile. Not sure what to make of that apart from it seems that noise in these markets is significant.
Hi Rob,
Thanks for your messages. I never bothered running the multiples at such extreme values. That’s so far out beyond the current market. I doubt that I’d ever feel comfortable trading with that type of style.
I agree that the trailing limit is wholly counter intuitive. There are obviously trends in the market. Nonetheless, it’s my experience is that noise heavily outweighs the amount of meaningful movements. Limits are much better in that situation due to the frequency. I also like that the trailing limit doesn’t exit at the worst possible point; it always leaves room for a retracement.
“My research shows that trading with a stop is for suckers.”
Your research may show this but if you trade with no stops I can guarantee you will eventually blow up.
Thank you for the comment. The report is on the idea of trailing stops. If you feel that strongly about using stops, there’s no reason that you couldn’t reapply the trailing part to the limit instead of the stop.
I think the idea and concept Van Tharp tried to expose is simply that because of human nature and poor decisions process, under influences of problems such as stress, or because of not optimum trading system / strategy, a random entry is better that an every time “wrong” entry, and that all the point is simply to learn to manage the trades and the game.
I didn’t set out to roast the guy – just that the claim, as worded, isn’t true. But I do understand what you’re saying, and it’s a fair point.